Swami-G & David Spero in Conversation, Part 3: May 17, 2010

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Swami-G: It's beyond words. One can't describe it. It's not an object that one gets and now is, you know, it's my object, you know. Yeah, realization is not an object that one now owns, another feather in my cap, you know, or something and that's what people think. Oh, if you're going to be a guru, it's such an ego affirming thing and that's absolutely hilarious because there is nothing ego affirming about being an honest, true guru because all you deal with is people's judgements, insecurities, drama.

David: Because you're not special you can appear to have an ego, just like anyone else. You have a personality.

Swami-G: Exactly, there's still persona...,

David: a speaking style. You have your own inflection of voice. They all belong to you.

Swami-G: They belong to this form.

David: What's the form? Where is the form?

Swami-G: Yeah, well....

David: It's not somewhere else. It's not out of being. It's not not absolute. It just moves. It's in action, in the field of action.

Swami-G: The form is what is there in the world of the transient. It's part of the transient drama. Okay, the form is there, the consciousness. So, once again, we come back to the linga, where you have the yoni, which is the transient, and then you have the shiva linga which represents the Absolute, that unchanging, zero.  It's very interesting. It's shaped like the zero, that unchanging zero of perfection. And they're not separate, they're not separate.

David: I like the metaphor of the waves in the ocean. So, they take form. They may have foam. They may have a certain pinnacle, a certain shape, then they settle right back down. They come up. Are they different from the ocean? Are they the same as the ocean? Yes, yes.

Swami-G: Yeah, not separate, not something different. A wave is just as much part of the ocean as any other part of it.

David: Does an individual great wave arise and then die back into that vastness? Yes, but it was never anything else but that pure Absolute water, wateriness.

Swami-G: Exactly, so simple, so simple....

David: Simple, and yet it may require many years of paying deeply to one's own self, paying close attention to one's self before this dawns, because it's so close that we miss it. So, you have to relearn how to look. You have to relearn, and that's what the teacher is for. The teacher teaches you how to look at yourself.  It's easy to look at objects, but when you apply that style of looking to yourself in terms of the Absolute, you never see it.  So, the teacher is there to teach you this other trick of learning, how to see seeing itself, how to see consciousness, and there is realization.  But, it's a very paradoxical path. 

Swami-G: It is, yeah.

David: Because you can't really teach it. 

Swami-G: No.

David: So, we're both pretentions.

Swami-G: There you go.


David: We're pretenses.

Swami-G: Pretenses?

David: We're both pretenses because we're saying, "Here I am, you can come and learn from me," and yet, we say can't teach it. We're giving a contradictory message, which means there's great humor in this. So, there's no difference, ultimately, between fakery and genuineness, if realization is the case. If there is no realization, then there is a distinction between fakery and genuineness in terms of this topic of realization. So, people are always scratching their heads on the question, " Well, is this a fake guru, is this a real guru?" and that's a valid question, but not as important as "Am I a fake student, or am I a real student?" Everybody's obsessed with the topic of, is this another charlatan, or is this a charlatan.


But, perhaps, the question should be asked to the self.  Am I a fake? Is my approach genuine? Am I sincere, or do I have an ulterior motive? Am I looking to see something flashy? Do I want to see miracles? Do I want to see siddhi's? Do I want to see all these things that may, in fact, occur around an enlightened being, but really are more like the waves of the sea and not the ocean in it's absoluteness.  So, the teacher offers this very real option for people to begin to notice consciousness in itself, as Absolute Being. And therefore, they can glimpse, or begin to tread this path of Self-realization.  It's a real path.  For me, there's no path. The path is gone now.

Swami-G: Right, the pathless path.

David: There's only consciousness now. There's only That. It's functioning. It never stops functioning. It's uninterrupted, unqualified, but for someone who's on the path, the path is real, and they must travel the path to the end because it's their path. It's his or her path. It's their journey.  It can't be side skipped. You can't pretend it's not there. I find people come to me sometimes, they say, "Oh, David, can't you just end this for me?" I say, "I'm doing all I can do just by being with you. You're getting everything you need."  The question is, are you simply paying attention to thinking about how to get there or are you just getting there? Just do it.

Swami-G: Exactly. Yeah, so many times, we always have the students come and they want to say "Well, you know, I'm gonna test you, and I want to see if you're real and if you're genuine, and if you're up to my level of being a guru and yada, yada, yada. But, you know, the guru also has a right to test the sadhaka's. Are you a genuine sadhaka? You know, are you worth the time and energy to give this to, or are you just there for bullshit, story and, you know, and all this nonsense, and have to think that, “Oh, you're so fortunate to have me as a student,” you know. And we get a lot of those types, “Oh, you're so fortunate to have me as a student.”


But really, what are you owed? What are any of the sadhaka's owed? They're not owed anything, but they come in like this sense of entitlement. Because I say I want it, therefore, you have to give it to me.  But no guru, no spiritual teacher, has to take anyone under their wing. They simply don't. What they give is given by grace, out of compassion, but the students aren't owed something..., simply they're not. But, yes, we give what we can, and we give as much as we can to bring people to a point of breaking through the conditioned mind, and how to walk the path, and this is what works. This doesn't work, this works. You know, all we can give them are these guidelines and methodologies and to help to aid them along.  But they have to be willing to listen and have to be genuine.


Like the first thing I tell people is be honest when you come.  What is it you're really seeking?  What is it you really want? Sometimes you work with people, two, three years before you finally get to an honest statement of what they want and what they don't want, and what they're willing to do and not willing to do.  Have the integrity to stand up and, once again, have integrity in your search. Be honest about what you want, what you don't want, what you're willing to put.  How much effort are you willing to put into it? How much dedication are you willing to put into it? Is this a hobby for you, or is it really the heart's desire to go the whole way to realization and do what it takes to get there? You know, are you just looking for another show, I want to be entertained? You know, let's get real with it. Do you want to be entertained, or do you want to walk the path to realization, ‘cause the path to realization is not always easy ‘cause you have to encounter yourself, and you have to encounter yourself fully, not your idea of what you think you should be like, you know, or what you hope you like.

You have to really see the nitty gritty and the not so wonderful along the way and have to go diving deeper, deeper, deeper.  But you have be to willing to encounter the emotions and counter what's coming up fully, without running away, without looking for another diversion.  So, we're looking also for the sadhakas, the genuine sadhakas, the genuine seekers, not the bullshit ones that want to spiritual shop here and there and just want to play, “I want to pick up something and I want to be entertained for a time, you know, and you better damn well fit my....”