Utility

Swami-G & David Spero in Conversation, Part 6 - Jan 21 2010

Recorded on: 
21.01.2010

David: What kind of society would you see as an indication of a healthy and spiritually awake group of human beings? Does that take any particular form in your mind? Does the question even make sense?

Swami-G: I think, in one way, yeah, and in one way no. I would say that it's one where there's no longer this competition against others, you know. That when humanity comes to see that we're all one viable whole and we're not separate. We don't have to say that, you know, I have less and you have more, therefore you have to give me what you have. There will come a point where people see that humanity is humanity.

David: And that cooperation begins to dominate over competition.

Swami-G: Cooperation. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Exactly, that we break down these barriers of us against them and that religion is "us against them." You know, that we find that deeper core that's there, which is One. And, that the expressions of it can be beautiful. All the different expressions, they don't need to be in competition against each other. So, mine is good and therefore yours is evil. I mean that's nonsense, nonsense. So, hopefully, mankind begins to awaken and see that others are the same as they themselves are.

David: So, for me, what unites human beings is that we all have bodies, we're all vulnerable, we all require food and shelter, and we require relationships that are supportive. And, within all of that, I think is our commonality. Not that I am a Hindu and you are a Jew, or you are a Muslim and I am a Taoist. And yet, there's so much of this pitting.

Swami-G: Right. Exactly, one against the other.

David: Idealogy itself and these various ideas that I am different.

Swami-G: Once you celebrate the differentness.

David: So, how do we destroy religion? The foundations?

Swami-G: Ahh, get everybody to realization. If everyone got to realization, they'd see that the religion, a lot of the religion, is the dogmatic stuff from people that wanna try to put everything in a box that they can contain and can hold and can control. But, you can't control spirituality. You can't control what is Reality. That blows all of these things about the religious dogmas out of the water.

David: So, we both agree on, that the religion itself must be deconstructed from its present state into something more primarily genuine.

Swami-G: Oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

David: Most religions are like corporations, really, giant corporations.

Swami-G: Well, a lot of them are used to put in, you know, the do‘s and don'ts. But, when one comes to that spiritual awakening and everything falls away, then one is inclined to only benefit, want to benefit humanity. Not to do something, to protect oneself and destroy somebody else in the offering.

David: But, do you think it was your prior education that allowed you to, in this post-awakened state, be the person, the generous person you are, the anti-religious person that you are? Or, do you think that realization produced that? I'm curious on that point.

Swami-G: Uhm, I think that a great part of it was realization, actually. Actually, because my view on religions and this and that changed after realization. Before, there was something to cling to, something you hoped you could get something from, you know. And that one used as an anchor or a way of justification.

David: Like if you read some of the apparently highly realized shankaracharyas, for example in Indian history, maybe not any that are living today, but someone from history, you'll find extreme misogyny in those statements. You'll find certainly homophobia, if you look for it. Maybe it wasn't discussed, because gay people were so repressed that even that conversation could not arise in that context. But, to me, realization does not bring….

Swami-G: But, I don't think all of the shankaracharyas are realized. It's a political . . .
If you've been to India, you've lived in there, you see it's very politicized.

David: It's like the Catholic Church.

Swami-G: Yeah, yeah, same thing. Same thing like with the Dalai Lama. He says, he's a simple monk. He was trained for his position.

David: And he's a homophobe. He remains homophobic.

Swami-G: Well, there are some other things. Yes, there are a few things going on.

David: So, is there realization there?

Swami-G: Well, he says he's a simple monk. And, I don't think he's just being generous. He's a simple monk.

David: But, he's purported and received as the incarnation of the Compassionate Buddha Aspect.

Swami-G: Exactly. Exactly.

David: And, he knows that he is received that way and he never says he is not that.

Swami-G: He does, but people, people say. . . He says, he's a simple monk. And, I think that's really the case. He hasn't had time to really sit and do the practices. He was taught from a young age to be a statesman. He was taught his job from a very young age.

David: But, he also says he meditates four or five hours a day.

Swami-G: Yeah.

David: I don't know what to think anymore in terms of . . .

Swami-G: I don't know, but no realized being could keep the nuns, also. They don't get the same things to the nuns as they do to monks either.

David: Ahh, so misogyny is a potent force within spiritual circles…

Swami-G: Yeah.

David: Still.

Swami-G: Still. Still, yes.