Utility

Swami-G & David Spero in Conversation, Part 4 : Jan 21, 2010

Recorded on: 
21.01.2010

David: There's a constant stream of Bliss-Filled Consciousness that is arising, transmitting, entering into other beings, helping, helping constantly; without question and answer; without even asking for it.

Swami-G: Yeah. Well, that happens. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yet, when the students are coming, there's always something being worked on, on another level. Not that the Teacher is consciously having to do that.

David: No. Definitely not.

Swami-G: It's not that. It's not that, oh, you come here and I'm gonna force this to happen. That's not what it is. You can block the transmission. You have free will. You can not open yourself to it and you can have it blocked or it can work. It works on a subtle level. But, it's not something that some persona, a Teacher, that is going to force to happen.

David: No outer authority.

Swami-G: Absolutely not.

David: It's authorityless.

Swami-G: Yes. It just takes place. It's that love, that Divine Love that's just there. It just happens in flow. That's all.

David: I follow.

Swami-G: Well, good.

David: This is fun. I enjoy being able to chat with someone who is also making an attempt to help people in this way.

Swami-G: Oh, what else can we do? It's the last directive of my Guru, so that's what happens. So one gives what can be given. Then, it's up to the sadhaka or what they do with it or not. That's all . . . Yeah, it's so funny, you know. People don't understand that they choose their suffering out of ignorance, because they don't know the difference. They don't know the difference.

David: Don't you think though that even suffering is an organic event in nature, in that, if something isn't right, but just needs more time on its own to come to its own fruition? Do you think that suffering is deliberately self-perpetuated in an individual?

Swami-G: No, I don’t say . . . It's done out of ignorance.

David: It is ignorance.

Swami-G: It's done out of ignorance. I went through a lot, a lot of suffering in my life along the way and in the path and it wasn't because I was choosing, oh, I love suffering. No, that's not it. It was done out of ignorance because one is trying to run away and trying to into an escapism and making all sorts of projections and story lines about things, you know, in order to keep yourself secure. But in doing that you wind up creating a jail and you put yourself in bondage, you know, so it's done out of ignorance, you know.

David: For me, I'm still in ignorance. There's no difference. There's no difference.

Swami-G: There's nothing that remains. The unknowing beyond knowledge is realization.

David: What is ignorance? Where is it? Show it to me. And yet, there's this whole subject – object [world]. This is real. Look, when I touch it, it makes a noise.

Swami-G: It's with the suffering mind. There you go. Yeah, I think one of the biggest things here was to see that when, you know, one is in that victimization thing, who is it that keeps re-victimizing? We re-victimize ourselves. And one has to look at that and finally say stop and look at what's there and what's past and let it go, rather than keep trying to reinvent another story about it.

David: Don't you think, though, a person only does that without any illumination?

Swami-G: That's why I'm saying. That's why I'm saying, it's done out of ignorance. It's done out of not the unknowing of that happens in realization where there's nothing to be known and all is known at once. You know, one does it out of the suffering mind of ignorance, of just not knowing, but in a way of not knowing, of not understanding a way forward.

David: This is darkness there.

Swami-G: Darkness, exactly, the darkness of ignorance. I'm not talking about the unknowing of knowledge.

David: I see. It's just that there's no discernability -- to even know what you're doing.

Swami-G: There is no discerning. Right. Right, exactly.

David: So, you're in a cycle of complete acting out all the time, without a break.

Swami-G: Exactly, exactly, you don't know the way out. You don't know the roadmap out and you don't understand that you're re-victimizing yourself. And that you are the one, the key, to come out of it, as well. You have the key to come out of it.

David: Because so many seekers and aspirants are pitting themselves against this thing called ignorance, one of the first proclamations I make in my sittings is that I'm completely ignorant and I'm just like you. Now, can we just relax, please? That there's no difference on that level between us.

Swami-G: Yeah. No, there is no difference.

David: And, where else would ignorance be? It would be in the Self. It's the Maya. It's the Mayic aspect that gives rise to all these forms. That‘s its measurement. It's the mind of measurement. It's the reality of delineation and quantification. It has no independent existence, but yet, I have separate hands. I have separate eyes. If I have a toothache, I go to the dentist. I don't say it's Maya. So, I suffer. I am suffering. I never distinguish myself apart from anything, from any level of experience or even perception. I tell people, I am ego. Why are you running away from it? Let's just sit and be friends in that ego. The ego wants chocolate. It wants peanut butter. Give it what it wants. Just don't eat hydrogenated peanut butter.

Swami-G: Okay. So, but when you use the term ego then (and I think we have a different usage of it again) for you, the ego is the illusion of being that suffering mind.

David: Yes. Yes.

Swami-G: And when realization takes place, you're no longer ego because you have no illusion that you are some separate persona. That persona has ended.

David: The feeling of that separative identity has been melted away.

Swami-G: Exactly, exactly, so, that's why I say, there is no longer ego. I'm not saying that within That, that there's not something that's still interacting in the world. There is still something that's interacting in the world.

David: Absolutely. And memory is involved, correct?

Swami-G: Ahh, well. I can't say that too much for here. There's not too much memory.

David: I understand. I understand. But, when someone calls your name, you respond correctly?

Swami-G: Yeah. Yes, of course. Of course.

David: So, there's some memory there. You remember where your clothes are when you get up in the morning. You can find your way to the bathroom. So, memory is working.

Swami-G: (laughing) I can find my way to the bathroom.

David: That's good. You're doing better than me. No, I'm just kidding.

Swami-G: That I can do. Yeah, that happens. But, as far as some of the other, it's gone. I can't remember from one day to another. It's gone.

David: I understand. In a given instance, it's all empty. In a given instance, it's all empty.

Swami-G: Exactly. Exactly.

David: And, short term memory seems to get you by. It's like, if it goes a little beyond that point, it's quite empty.

Swami-G: It's gone. It's gone.

David: Even parking your car, you come out and I have literally just stood looking at the parking lot - all those cars.

Swami-G: See, this is why I have a bright orange car, so it can be found. See?

David: But, what if you forget your car is orange?

Swami-G: Oh, that doesn't go, you know.

David: Oh, see, the memory is intact. Exactly.

Swami-G: Well, no, it's just, it's just like automatic, like the homing pigeon. That's all I can say. But yeah, it's like the homing pigeon.

David: I'm glad we're having fun. I'm glad we're having a good time.

Swami-G: Yeah, gotta have fun. Gotta laugh. Gotta have a good time.

David: Ramakrishna used to say, he described his Teaching as being in a Mansion of Fun. And I thought that's a delicious description both of the enormity of it and the fact that even within there, where there are these great samadhis, these great erasures of personal consciousness, even permanently established Voidness, sahaja samadhi; in the end you can just laugh and joke with people. You can be a friend. You can be happy. You can cry with people.

Swami-G: Exactly. Exactly. You're with people on their level. Wherever they come to,
that's what plays out. That's all.

David: The Lila Shakti of That.

Swami-G: Exactly, of whatever it is.

David: Even ignorance is just a playing out of this ultimate Truth.

Swami-G: Exactly.

David: When people come to you, they say, “ I'm ignorant.“ I say to them, “I don't believe you, but we'll have this discussion if you want to.“

Swami-G: And that's fine.

David: Of course, you have to just love people where they are.

Swami-G: Well, exactly.

David: It's that unconditional acceptance that gives birth to the trust that you can then illustrate the Enlightened Mind.

Swami-G: Exactly.