Utility

Swami-G & David Spero in Conversation, Part 3 : Jan 21, 2010

Recorded on: 
21.01.2010

David: It's no longer a choice. It's not even a knowing. It's not even a "realization."

Swami-G: No, because there has to be a persona to have a realization.

David: Exactly.

Swami-G: It's not something that one realizes and no persona is ever going to get it.

David: It's Vedanta.

Swami-G: It's just what remains. And whether one is in that expressible dance of Shakti and that bliss of Shakti or one is more within that residence of the quiet. And one can go flip back and forth, but it's still not two, not two, not two. They are not separate. It's not separate. It's just absolutely not. Shakti is the dance. And that dance is always, you know, trying to impress Shiva or that which is the quietude.

David: This is beautiful. You've really taken it a step in the direction where I‘d hoped we could go with this discussion and I would just like to introduce the notion of Bhava. There are Bhavas within the Eternally Illumined Condition. So, this is where all the symbolism comes from. All the different gods with all the different faces, all the different mudras, all the different communicative tastes of the One Divine Reality.

Swami-G: There are many different flavors. There are many, many different flavors. You know, that's what's fun about it. In the transient, there are many different flavors and none of those flavors are separate from the Divine Is, or Absolute, which is One. It doesn't mean that it cancels it out. That there's only one flavor. Oh, no, many flavors. That's what's the fun of it. Absolutely... I think that some of the problems it is with teachers and teachings. Many times we're talking about the same thing, but the way that it's described, it's described in a different avenue. And, so that maybe one teacher uses one word to represent something and another teacher uses a different word to represent the same things. And there gets to be some confict in thinking that, oh they're using, they're saying something different, you know, and so I think that more teachers need to come together and spend more time together and find out that really that what's being said is very much of the same thing rather than being at loggerheads with each other.

David: Another myth that needs to be busted around Realization is that there are behaviors or stereotypes, which would be exemplified, such as a teacher will always appear quiet. A teacher will never get angry. There'll be no sexual desire. There'll be no sadness. There will be no relative play going on on the internal, in the name of "no ego." Because there's "no ego" there, how can you possibly feel anything other than that quietness? That's another problem I think that needs to be addressed in the spiritual dialogs among teachers.

Swami-G: Well, somebody has developed this specific persona and that parabda karma plays out. You know, it just plays out. You know, one's basic personality doesn't change. What the world is interacting with, that doesn't change. What changes is the Consciousness. That's what's changed. One is living in a radically different Consciousness, but that has nothing to do with the outward manifestation of what the form has done or what it continues to do. Nothing to do with that.

David: Exactly. Nothing really changes.

Swami-G: No, not in that external thing. It doesn't change.

David: Consciousness is completely radicalized. That's the phrase I like to use.

Swami-G: Yeah. Everything is blown out. Nirvana means blown out and that's what happens. That conditioned mind of suffering is blown out. And the illusion is blown out. And life continues.

David: And all ideas of representational enlightenment are blown out. You don't know who you are. You don't know how you are going to behave. That kind of remnant self-consciousness that is always looking back in and on itself has been erased.

Swami-G: It's gone. It's gone. There's nothing to think about. There's nothing to try to judge. Should I do this? Should I do that? Oh my god, what are people going to think of this or that? None of that. Because there's nobody there to judge anything. There's nobody there to, you know. You don't give a rat's ass. It's just flow. That's all. It's just flow that remains. You know, it's none of that, oh, I need to act like this. And no, spiritual teachers and realized beings are not floating on air. You know, we just don't. We actually walk on feet and we eat, you know, everything that normal people do. One goes into being more normal and more ordinary rather than less.

David: There's this direct connection with Reality. What else can you be at that point besides your naturally arising Self?

Swami-G: But, absolutely ordinary. There's nothing special about you anymore. On the path, you think you're special.

David: Until you look into their eyes. Until you look deeply into the soul of where that "person" is residing. And there's where the notion of Transmission arises. Of what use is the Teacher? What is the value of sitting with a Teacher? Is it that they are out there to tell you some things about Enlightenment or perform Jnana Yoga with you, or Bhakti Yoga, always instructing you? Or are they in some sense the Entire Field that is the Awakened Condition -- and present themselves as That and in That -- so that anybody can even acquire darshan through that Being, by absorbing the Transmission?

Swami-G: Right. Darshan is one of the most important things. That's really stressed on this path as well that the students come and take the darshan as often as possible, because there is a Transmission that takes place. That Illumination and that Reality of where the Teacher resides is working on that heart center. It's working on the conditionings. It's working on awakening Kundalini, awakening that Consciousness, so it can fold in on itself and find out what's there and what's not. So, very important.

David: And in this context, Ramana Maharshi said that the Guru is always pulling you on the outside toward the Self and the inner Self is pulling you from within. They're both mutually complementary forces; if I understood that correctly; if I repeated that right.

Swami-G: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's why when you hear truth, it's going to resonate. It's going to resonate within. We try to awaken and enliven that within the student. Okay, it's not that we're going to give you something externally. Yeah, students come and why don't you give it to me? Why don't you just hand it to me? Well, nobody can hand you something you already are.You know, it can only be enlivened where you yourself can perceive.

David: When I was with U.G. Krishnamurti, he told me his story personally. When he met Ramana Maharshi and how he did not want to go visit Him. But, one of his friends, I guess to the point of annoyance, got his way with him. So he went to see Ramana and he said, as a cocky fifteen-year-old, he approached Ramana and said, “ Okay, so they say that you're This. Can you give It to me?“ And Ramana said, I can give It. “Can you take it?“

Swami-G: Oh, he's the one that he said that to. Yes, I read there was somebody that came. I didn't know it was U.G. It wasn't made specific who he said that to. But yes, I remember him saying that. Can you take it, though? I can give it. Can you take it?

David: So, as far as I'm concerned, it's always being given.

Swami-G: Uh hum.