Utility

Buddha At The Gas Pump Interview With David, Part 7

Recorded on: 
27.06.2010

David: …also. Then there are some divine clowns that go into sahaja samadhi. This is a very humorous state and it’s what it is; there’s not much you can say about it. Beyond that, is what I would just call the “mother,” the womb of the universe - that in which every and any spiritual lineage connects in order to help people. I don’t know what that is. There’s something you call the mother only in its reference to nature and the cosmos; the mother being the body of the whole universe, of everything.

Rick: I would say that in many cases these teachers you refer to who have attained various degrees of realization often assume that they’ve attained some final degree of realization and expound it that way whereas in fact they haven’t. This sort of creates confusion because people hear them talking about a certain level of experience such as the sense of not being a person, or not having any kind of personal identity and they assume that that’s it and that can go on for years.

David: For some people a bachelor’s degree will be sufficient; that’s their full education, they have filled the container of their knowledge with that amount of knowledge. Some people go on to masters’ degrees, P.H.D.’s, post graduate, post-post graduate; there’s no true quantification of what makes one able to teach and the word “finalized,” finalized in their realization could mean many things. It’s a semantic difficulty on the one hand because at sahaja samadhi there is something radically different that happened that is not in the ordinary structure of spiritual realization. It’s not in anybody’s chart. When you read spiritual critics for example on the internet criticizing a teacher perhaps because of behavior issues this is all within the field of attainment and then the reflection of that attainment in the personality of the body mind. I’m talking about something here that’s very different, very, very different; strikingly different.

Rick: Do you feel like I’m getting it? I want to make sure that the full impact of what you are saying is expressed but am not quite sure what question to ask, if any, to make sure that the audience understands exactly what you are saying. Is there something you can say that you might help us to just get this a little bit clearer?

David: Yeah, you won’t get it.

Rick: Ok, good. That makes it easy. Perhaps at this point this might be an interesting, relevant point in which to segway into this notion of “avatar” which you mentioned in the beginning and which if anybody looks you up on YouTube they are going to see on every single YouTube video it says, “David Spero, spiritual master/avatar.” And I think most people wouldn’t have too much problem with the spiritual master part but the avatar part might be a bit of a stretch for many people. In what sense do you use that word?

David: In the sense of having produced this condition, this un-producible condition of sahaha-samadhi and then glimpsing the entire fabric of the universe; the entirety—and also being able to recollect in one’s own personal experience and trace back through all what one has realized one’s origin in the divine condition. This is not the perfect place at least right now to go into so much more that I could tell you about this. Not that I’m evading the question or trying to come out unscathed here - it’s a good question you’re asking. For me an avatar can mean several things from several perspectives: someone who is immersed in the Absolute as empty silence, in high devotional states of supreme devotion and also in Kundalini-shakti realization, all at the same time. So an avatar is really something that just radiates, it’s a radiation vehicle. Now this is not to say that someone say in unity consciousness could not radiate, they do radiate, in fact even ignorant people radiate what they are. If a miserable person comes into the room some other people might start to get miserable. If you are ecstatic you might produce a wave of ecstasy.
This is why we can’t really talk about this in terms of strict hierarchy. People hear the word avatar and think, “Oh, the top of the mountain, this is the king of all kings. This is the servant of all servants.” This is the most really despicable condition to be in because it implicates total responsibility for the entire human race; one feels as though one has authored everything. This is a first time definition I’m offering you, I don’t have any ideas of what any of these things mean except in so far as I can reference them reasonably to be traditions from which they come. This avatar idea is a Vedic idea. It’s a Vedic invention. It’s a metaphor. It means descent. It means someone who has descended in a fully realized condition to the Earth but also with the propensity to realize and then radiate and help others, help everything.

Rick: Yeah, that pretty much sums up my understanding of the term, my definition of the term as I’ve learned it - not being thoroughly familiar with all the examples of avatars throughout history but I can think of a couple. For instance Krishna was said to have never lost his realization from any stage in his life and even as a little baby he was doing all this miraculous stuff and his mother would open his mouth and see the universe in there. Whereas Rama actually went through a whole spiritual path and all kinds of despair and catharsis and various stages before he realized his divinity and his brothers were also said to be avatars perhaps not as full as he. So in that sense of the term I understand the word to mean, from my limited understanding some descent as you say, some incarnation of a soul or a being who was already sort of merged with or aware of their identity as god but who chose or was assigned to come to Earth to serve a particular role. By that definition I suppose there could be many avatars because there are many roles to play, many jobs to do and god can do whatever he wants. He is the boss, also in terms of how fully he wishes. It’s incorrect to say “he” because I’m sure it’s not a male, but how fully that intelligence wishes to express itself according to the vehicle it chooses to occupy. I suppose it could go across quite a range of degrees. Now if I was writing that I probably could have said it in a quarter as many words. Do you get what I’m trying to say and do you have a comment on that?

David: I think you communicated one often misunderstood notion regarding an avatar which is that they don’t evolve their consciousness in the human plane. They don’t go through states of consciousness; that’s incorrect.

Rick: Ok.

David: Avatars are born inherently one with their own self, the self of Being, but they still have to mature in stages of consciousness to re-remember their inherent status as the divine. That’s how they become acquainted or reacquainted with the error in which they teach.

Rick: So by that definition how would an avatar differ from anyone else? Everyone is inherently one with the divine and their essence and they have to go through a remembering process or a discovery process in order to live that. So are you saying that an avatar is different because they had already realized it and they just forgot it when they took birth? It’s sort of like when you dig up the ground and then put in the dirt in again and come back a year later. It’s easier to dig that ground then it is to dig some place that’s never been dug before.

David: Yes. That’s right. That’s a good analogy for the kind of naturalness with which an avatar evolves in the human plane. They tend to evolve very rapidly and they are not happy with any level of realization, what comes out is something massive in the end. In other words an ordinary human being who attains enlightenment will have self-established and they will live in the infinite just as an avatar does. There is no difference in the quality of consciousness but there is something about that avatars’ nervous system that has been prepped by nature to act as a radiator as well. In an ordinary human being you might not get this radiation power, even in a Self-realized one.

Rick: I had a very good friend who…